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<title>IRC Conference log</title>
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<h1>IRC Conference log</h1>
<h2>
Non Profit Organization (NPO) to Support OpenSource Developers<br />
by Kazunari Hirano<br />
<!-- <a href="../slides/">Download slides</a> -->
</h2>
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[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I will start in 5 min., is it ok for you all?
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
Yes, certainly
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
If you want to have Slides of my presentation, please go to get it there:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
My .sxi is here: http://native-lang.openoffice.org/conference/
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
let me start :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Hi all,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Thanks for coming. :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
And very sorry for being late to upload my presentation.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
My .sxi is here: http://native-lang.openoffice.org/conference/
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I have been travelling around Japan to meet people
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
whom I would like to ask to join, and to discuss with them about vision of NPO, OpenSourcers (tentative name) and our dreams.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Becase I think it is very important that NPO founders trust each other.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I have just been back from Tokyo.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
OK, let me start my presentation.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 1:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
My talk will be on Non Profit Organization (NPO) to Support OpenSource Developers
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 2:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
My talk will be short. I would like to have your advises and comments, more time for Q & A and discussion.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
After my presentation I have questions for you.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Please think about these questions while seeing, listening my presentation.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
My questions are:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
What NPO law do you have in your country?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Are you planning to establish an NPO?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Do you know contributors, developers or translators who need financial or material help?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
What do they need, What do they want?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Why are you working for OpenOffice.org the product and the community?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
What is your motivation?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Do you think that money can help OpenSource development? :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Here is the Agenda
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Speaker Introductions
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Japan
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
OpenOffice.org Ja Native Language Project
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Japan OpenOffice.org Users Group
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
What we really need
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
What if we have money
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
NPO Law in Japan
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
NPO Activity
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
and Q & A
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 3:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
My name is Kazunari Hirano.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
When I introduce myself with my full name in Japanese,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I say my family name first, and then my given name,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
so I say, my name is Hirano Kazunari.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We use Chinese Characters.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We can't express well without using them.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Chinese Characters are ideogram.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
When we see it, we can imagine what it means.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
In my name you can see a Chinese Character "One," very easy one to understand :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
My name literally means, "Plain Field, One Success."
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 4: Japan
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I made this Japan language map based on information given by:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=JP
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I don't think it's a correct map
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
because their information is old and often incorrect
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
but it's ok, one of the very interesting view on languages in Japan.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I am a member of the OpenOffice.org Japanese Native Language Project,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I am a Japanese living in Japan.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I am an OpenOffice.org blogger :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
http://openoffice.exblog.jp/
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
There you can see my face :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Japan is often called Japanese archipelago or Japanese islands.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Bigger islands are Hokkaido, Honshu, Shikoku and Kyushu.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I live in "Ichinoseki" City, "Iwate" Prefecture,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
northern part of Japan Main Island, "Honshu."
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 5:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Japanese Native Language Project
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Ja NLP membership
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
http://ja.openoffice.org/servlets/ProjectMemberList
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We have around 800 observers registered and around 20 developers registered.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We form OpenOffice.org Japan Users Group, core of which is OpenOffice.org Japanese Native Language Project.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
For this group we have 15 managing staffs,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
core of which are OpenOffice.org Japanese Native Language Project members who have signed JCA and have commit rights.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
The Users Group has a users mailing list outside the OpenOffice.org Japanese Native Language Project to embrace as many users as possible,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
which is openoffce@freeml.com
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
It has Near 3,000 subscribers
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Sure we have Project Mailing Lists:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We use discuss@ja.openoffice.org to discuss about management of the group, marketing, events, and general questions regarding OpenOffice.org
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We use translate@ja.openoffice.org for translation works, translation collaboration with Sun Microsystems, OpenOffice.org translation bug reporting etc.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 6:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
OpenOffice.org Japan Users Group
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
It is just a group.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We don't know who are members.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
It is not a legal entity.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
All activity is based on volunteers.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We don't have accounting function.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We can't receive money.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
When we need money or have a chance to receive money,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
we ask an individual, a staff member, to voluntarily open a bank account.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
The group often creates OpenOffice.org CDs and distributes free to people at events and conferences in Japan.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
When we organized the OpenOffice.org Conference Japan 2005,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
a company wanted to contribute to us.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
A staff member asked a CD manufacturer to press hundreds of OpenOffice.org CDs and pay for them.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
And after the conference, the company donate the amount of money what he paid to his own account.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
This was heavy burden and risk for him.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 7:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
What we really need
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We don't want money.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We want People
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We want Developers
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We want Translators
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We want Contributors
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We want Motivated people
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We want to have quality OpenOffice.org
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We want to contribute to society
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We want Communication
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We want to Help people
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Now do we need Money?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 8:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
What if we have money
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We don't work for money. :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
But what if we have money:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We can get more contributors, developers and translators.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Skilled developers are busy. :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We can ask developers to share their time.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Tools are needed for development.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We can provide them with equipments.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Developers need information and exchange of ideas.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We can help them go to conferences.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We can do a lot of activity you can imagine :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Marketing activitiy, Organizing activity....
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 9:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
NPO Law in Japan
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
It was enacted on Dec. 1, 1998 and revised on May 1, 2003.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
The revised law simplified the application and grant process.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Under the NPO law, Japanese government grants a volunteer group as a legal entity
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
What is benefits to become an NPO, a legal entity
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Can open a bank account as a group
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Can open an office as a group
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Can register its real property as a group
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Can perform other various legal action as a group
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 10:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
The NPO law provides Authorized NPO.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
National Tax Agency grants an Authorized NPO.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
If individuals and organizations donate to the Authorized NPO, they don't have to pay tax for the donation.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
The law provides expansion of tax breaks for donations.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
It facilitates individuals, companies and other organizations to danate to NPOs :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 11:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
NPO requirements
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
NPO must have certain purposes
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
such as promotions for welfare, social education,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
for local community, academic and scientific research,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
for environment, security, human rights, children,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
for information society, economic revitalization,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
for employment, consumer protection, etc..,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
which benefit general public
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
NPO is like a company
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
A company makes money for profit.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
NPO makes money but not for profit,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
which means NPO members don't share profit.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Not more than 1/3 of board members get compensation.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
NPO must have at least 3 bord members and 1 auditor.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 12:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
NPO should have Business Plan:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
They may be:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
OpenSource Software Development
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
OpenSource Software Localization
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Translation
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Publication (e.g."OpenOffice.org Magazine" with CD)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Design Usable and Beautiful Computers
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Research
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
User support
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Consulting
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Events, Conferences, Campaign, Fundraising
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 13:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We will find out good, skilled, honest contributors,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
developers and translators from OpenSouce communities and other fields.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We will meet them and discuss what they want to do,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
what they need and what we can do together
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
to develop OpenOffice.org and other OpenSource Software.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We encourage them to work together and provide them with what they need by giving them resources, information, money, etc.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We encourage them to join our activity and dispatch them to the conference by giving them transportation and accomodation.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 14:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I would like to focus on Translation Works.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Translation is essential to Japanese OpenSource Communities.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
to provide developers with information
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
for good communication with world developers
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
to motivate developers to join development works
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
For example: TCM (Test Case Maintenance)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
When 1.9.79 test, Japanese Version TCM registered testers were 3,
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
as TCM test cases was all in English.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Then TCM test cases have been translated in Japanese.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
1.9.95 Japanese Version testers increased to 11.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Japanese Translation facilitates Japanese contributors and developers to join OpenOffice.org activity.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 15:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
What would the NPO like to do in future?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
to help world OpenSource developers
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
to help communication and collaboration between various OpenSource communities and businesses
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
OpenOffice.org Aynu Localization
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
OpenOffice.org Klingon Localization
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Verious localization works
<br />
[<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>cloph</span>]
??
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Host OpenOffice.org Conference in Japan
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
and to help all the projects you can imagine.. :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
correction: Various localization works
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I would like to add some future projects to the slide.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Under the NPO law, NPO can establish a school.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
So the NPO would make a school to educate OpenSource developers and send them to the society.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
cloph: let us talk about Klingon later :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
:-)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
So the NPO would make a school to educate OpenSource developers and send them to the society.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
And the NPO can set up a research institute for OpenSource Software, attached to the school.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Slide 16:
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Thanks for your attention and Q & A :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
simple questions please :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>cloph</span>]
So what about klingon? Do you really meant the klingon from the enterprise-series?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
cloph: yes!
<br />
[<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>cloph</span>]
I really wonder who will (or better can) use an Office Suite in klingon... :-)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
cloph: so let us talk about it later, one reason is that it is fun!
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
that's all, and I can think of marketing purpose :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>gautehk</span>]
Thanks, khirano, this was both interesting and familiar because we already have a foundation/NPO that funds OOo work in Norway. Where will the Japanese NPO get money?
<br />
[<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>cloph</span>]
..But according to german wikipedia it is a registered language! And there even is a wikipedia in klingon :-) but enough about this... Sorry for disturbing/being off-topic :-)
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
khirano: Is this the Q&A now?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
gautehk: the NPO do business and ask companies and local governments, japanese government to donate.
<br />
[<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>gautehk</span>]
khirano: Sounds very familiar (and sensible)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
the NPO publishes magazines and others, and sell them.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
the NPO collect membership fee, also.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
cloph: it's ok. I want to discuss about it later :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>gautehk</span>]
khirano: who are members? Individuals or large-scale users (companies/organizations/government)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
gautehk: Both
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
they would be members. they can join the NPO as individuals and organizations.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
And membership fees would vary
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
the NPO can decide the membership fee for individuals and organizations.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
khirano: Do the NPO members get an allowance for their work?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
the NPO can employ staffs, who would be paid, allowance.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
It could employ developers and documentation writers! :-)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
DanielC: right!
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
:-)
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
I'd like that a lot. I think it would help OOo to have more developers, and in particular, some who aren't tied to any company.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Even if we don't hire people full time, if we just hire a couple of guys part time, that would be something.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Or we could work on commission.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Like, get someone to write SVG import. :-)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
DanielC: thanks for good ideas
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Yeah, that might work well. Comission would work for a beginning NPO.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
khirano: Is your NPO setup already?
<br />
[<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>gautehk</span>]
For comparison, here's briefly what we do: The Norwegian foundation employs part-time translators. It has no membership fee. Some of the board members represent large-scale users.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
NOT YET!
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
ok
<br />
[<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>cloph</span>]
SVG-import already exists as a xslt-based solution (at least it was started)
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
cloph: Yeah, but it needs work.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
gautehk: You have an NPO already?
<br />
[<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>gautehk</span>]
DanielC: yes, for a year or so
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
cool.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Do you now other projects that do too?
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
I think I heard that French NL has one.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
khirano: Don`t you think there will be conflicts of interest if there are developers who are employed and others who are not?
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
jrahemipour: How so?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
jrahemipour: I am thinking about it too.
<br />
[<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>gautehk</span>]
Volunteers do the fun stuff, paid employees do the boring work. (Basically :-)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
So we will meet developers and ask them whether they want to be supported or not.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
and the NPO will open all the information it has, whom it supports and others
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
Germany has such a NPO too... but we have problems to separate between "NPO interests" and "own business interests" of the members
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
jrahemipour: the NPO will help their communication and understanding
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
Its not the problem of the members, more the critical voices you hear in the de-community
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
jrahemipour: yes, it is. we have to think about it. but I think we can solve the question by communication and mutual understanding
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
Whats about the ja-community? How does they think about it?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Not all the people among ja-community think that the NPO is the best solution
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
khirano: Yes, thats right. Communication between community an NPO is very important. It`s very important to have strict rules how to handle with the earned money
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
The present ja-community can not handle money at all.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
khirano: Do they have alternatives? Or do they think, its not important to handle with money?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
But we know we have to have some measure to handle money and to further develop our works and community
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
jrahemipour: No, they don't have alternatives, I think.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
khirano: That`s true... we concentrate on marketing activities at the moment, I don`t think, we can manage it in the next years to employ people
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I think they are OK with present situation to do the same as past.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
But I think we have to do more to keep the community survive and be active.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Actually it is difficult to keep motivation of developers and translators among ja-community.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
khirano: How did the qa-community increase in the last two years? Do you know, how many observers and developers you had 2 years before?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
jrahempour: I don't know exactly how many
<br />
[<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>gautehk</span>]
khirano: I can imagine motivation being difficult. OOo is a lot harder to work on than most other open source projects.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
but OpenOffice.org development so far is itself very interesting and we got many users.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
khirano: I guess it's an issue of making it easier for developers who are already interested to not be distracted by "work".
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
khirano: Kind of like what they did for Linus.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
DanielC: it is true :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
hhmm... maybe this also leads into "who do we hire?"
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
The NPO would hire people who have been working for a while and have shown commitment.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
it is the most important question.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
But that wouldn't address problems like hiring someone to finish SVG import. That is, problems for which no current member can help.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
It's a difficult question. Discussion is good.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We have to meet them and discuss.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
To meet them, we have to travel, we need money :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
:-)
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
If you focus on local developers it might be easier.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Or... you can arrange for "potentials" to go to OOoCon.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Hhmm... I like that idea.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Pick a few people who are good contributors and sponsor them to go to OOoCon.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Then meet them there.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
sounds good.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Even if you don't "hire" them later, you still did something valuable with that money.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
You know what I mean.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
yes, definitely
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
:-)
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
I only see the problem... "who decides it" and how to prevent, that the others not think to get a raw deal
<br />
[<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Magi</span>]
I've heard that SVG is hard to implement? Possibly it can't be done with XSLT at all.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
jrahemipour: I guess that you need some sort of committee. So no one person can choose arbitrarily (or be /seen/ to choose arbitrarily).
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
jrahemipour: You have the OpenOffice.org non profit association in German, right?
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
jrahemipour: But no matter what you do, someone will always be upset.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Magi: I hear that an "ok" filter is doable, but a "complete" filter is very hard.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Magi: But I don't know.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
khirano: Yes we have... and we have exact this kind of problems with it
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
jrahemipour: I would like to share knowledge and activity with yours
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
jrahemipour: How do you decide right now?
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
DanielC: We don`t decide much at the moment. We focus on marketing activities. We pay for things, the members had to pay for theirselves before
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
jrahemipour: Ok. That's still a good way to spend the money. You don't *have* to hire people.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
(IMHO)
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
We have a "board of directors" (Vorstand), who decides, how to spend the money... we are 3 persons
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
I see.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
DanielC: But its always the problem, not to be inequitable
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
jrahemipour: I don't envy your position. No matter what you do, someone will be unhappy.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
But we surely spend money for community members who are not members of the NPO
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
So all one can do is minimize the number of unhappy people.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
ok
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Perhaps it's safer to "sponsor" people so they spend less money themselves? Like taking them to OOoCon.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
But this is a problem too... we have laws, that we are not allowed to spend too much money for non-members
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
jrahemipour: Do you have a lot of complaints over how DE-NL spends money?
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
DanielC: Yes, we had terrible discussions about it in the beginning of this year
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
:-(
<br />
[<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>gautehk</span>]
(unstable network ...)
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
But it was at a time we did not spend much money at all. We were at the beginning of our activities... and it slowed down our motivation...
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
jrahemipour: May I ask what the money argument was about? Or do you prefer to not discuss it?
<br />
[<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>hfischer</span>]
This is hot stuff.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
ok
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
let's not get into it then.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
DanielC: No, its ok! But I don`t know the arguments exactly.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
ok
<br />
[<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>hfischer</span>]
I for myself can't explain the discussions exactly.
<br />
[<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>cloph</span>]
The main problem with this whole discussion was that it was not arguments that were discussed but personalities.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
cloph: Yes, that`s right
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
:(
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
But that's not a fundamental problem with NPO's. That can happen with any kind of decison.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
Its a problem to get active people for the work at a NPO... the others mistrusts them and think, they only have personal interests
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
oh
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Trust, it is important.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Yes.
<br />
[<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>cloph</span>]
The only "money" related thing was that there was a sponsered weekend in a hotel (the owner of the hotel sponsored the stay, the members only had to pay for food/drinking). Members of the e.V. had to bay 5 € less. But this really was a very marginal point of the discussion.
<br />
[<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>hfischer</span>]
For me was the foundation of the german NPO not really anchored at the online community. The right communication between a very active group and the online volunteers was missing. So I think. That is my personal opinion, I speak only for my self.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
hfischer: So they felt left out.
<br />
[<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>hfischer</span>]
Yes, I think so.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Ok.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Well... we've learned something. That when you setup an NPO it's important to involve as much of the community as you can.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
And not just do it yourself.
<br />
[<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>hfischer</span>]
DanielC: Yes.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
We didn´t do it ourself in germany. But not all community members noticed it
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
Its a difficult topic... involving the community is very important, but you have to make a decision sometime
<br />
[<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>hfischer</span>]
It is a arduous way to communicate special facts all over the net and through mailinglists. Some people want to get results very quick, but that is not even possible in a online community who could speak together realtime.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
hfischer: it's true.
<br />
[<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AietKolkhi</span>]
Hello DanielC, Khirano, Helga and everybody. I am sorry I was not able to join earlier. The topic seemedvery interesting, so I will have to see the logs I guess :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
We talked about the foundation for more than 2 Years...
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
AietKolkhi: Good to see you.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
jrahemipour: That seems like plenty of time...
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Of course, I don't know the details.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
jrahemipour: you started a local foundation actually, it is a good progress.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
we start a NPO in Japan and would get some experience.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
Another point is, that the people who are not only working online, spent a lot of money for fairs and so on, so they saw many good reasons
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
We can share our knowledge and many things.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
khirano: Yes, certainly. Feel free to ask, if you have questions!
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
jrahemipour: yes I will :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I am happy to get some good ideas and experience here :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
khirano: Will you attend the next OOoCon?
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
the NPO would start next month
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I hope. I am writing Business Plan of the NPO now:)
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
khirano: Oh, good! Please don`t hesitate to contact us
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I will make another presentation about the NPO's experience.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
That would be very interesting
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
OK, thanks all, I will go to bed now.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
May I see you all at the next OpenOffice.org Conference?
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
khirano: Goodnight! And thanks for the interesting presentation
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
khirano: Good night!
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Are you coming? to France or Slovenia?
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Thank you for the talk!
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
you are welcome
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
DanielC: I am helped by you :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
:)
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
khirano: Yes, I will be there...
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
my pleasure, all, thanks, good night.
<br />
[<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>gautehk</span>]
khirano: Thanks for the talk. It's quite possible I'll come too.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
jrahemipour: Maybe I'll be there this year too. :-)
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
I'd love to meet everyone.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
DanielC: That would be fine
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
gautehk: that's good! I will see you face-to-face. it will be nice.
<br />
[<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>hfischer</span>]
khirano: Thank you for this presentation. It was very interesting for me.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
clap clap clap clap clap clap
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
:-)
<br />
[<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>hfischer</span>]
clap clap clap clap clap clap
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
Thanks all, again, and I am looking forward to seeing you face-to-face, offline :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
yeah
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I would like to hear your voices :)
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
khirano: Ciao...
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
I would like to shake hands with you.
<br />
[<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
good night, all
<br />
[<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>hfischer</span>]
Good Night.
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
Bye all...
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
bye
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
thank you for comming
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
Nice "meeting" you.
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
:-)
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
dito :-)
<br />
[<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
"See" you next time...
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
yeah
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
bye bye
<br />
[<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
:)
<br />